desi3933
02-02 01:59 PM
I'm also going to do a FOIA request for my I-140 that got approved in Jan 08. Employer is saying its their petition and they wont share it. I'm not going into argument because they revoke it now - The Legal Immigration system is too weak and too much lopsided to a "employer" rather than on the "individual employee"
I know during a PD porting to another AC21 employer this approval notice is sufficient even if the I-140 is revoked but my doubt is if my I-140 gets revoked can i switch to another employer and extend my H1B by 3 more years ??
>> if my I-140 gets revoked can i switch to another employer and extend my H1B by 3 more years ??
No, I-140 must be active in order to extend H1-B beyond 6 years.
____________________
Not a legal advice.
US Citizen of Indian Origin
I know during a PD porting to another AC21 employer this approval notice is sufficient even if the I-140 is revoked but my doubt is if my I-140 gets revoked can i switch to another employer and extend my H1B by 3 more years ??
>> if my I-140 gets revoked can i switch to another employer and extend my H1B by 3 more years ??
No, I-140 must be active in order to extend H1-B beyond 6 years.
____________________
Not a legal advice.
US Citizen of Indian Origin
wallpaper makeup with Amores Perros),
bijualex29
09-15 08:41 AM
How came you know my life story.
I hope I am not the one in this world
I hope I am not the one in this world
Imigrait
05-21 04:44 PM
These processing times are crap. My received date i 140 is July 24 2007 which is not even in this dates, but it got approved on May 5th 2008
can anybody paste here if they see new dates?
PD Jan 24, 2004- EB2
I140 aproved May 5th 2008
RD I140 and 485 concurrent July 24 2007
I agree. My I140 also got approved. See my signature for details.
can anybody paste here if they see new dates?
PD Jan 24, 2004- EB2
I140 aproved May 5th 2008
RD I140 and 485 concurrent July 24 2007
I agree. My I140 also got approved. See my signature for details.
2011 images amores perros daniel.
xlr8r
03-15 01:57 PM
You're welcome.
Yep. Got copies of labor, I-140 forms and approvals via FOIA. :)
Thanks xlr8r!! I am filing today. Dont have I140 receipt number.
Did your luck shine !!!!
Yep. Got copies of labor, I-140 forms and approvals via FOIA. :)
Thanks xlr8r!! I am filing today. Dont have I140 receipt number.
Did your luck shine !!!!
more...
diptam
08-22 02:07 PM
hey aadimanav,
If the legislations dont change - my estimate would be even more than 7 years (come on they already have 500k pending app before this 300k July2nd boom). In USCIS term It doesn't matter where you stand in line out of that 800K folks. The NSC july 2nd filers are speculated to be transfered to TSC almost 2 months down the line and no one has guaranted that our Original Receipt date of July 2nd be kept intact - How do you logically map this ??
What Franklin said very logical - very realistic !
Thanks,
Diptam
I like your word: "guestimate" (Guess + Estimate) i.e. tukka (hindi word)
Well, I don't think I am at the end of line of 300,000 people. There must be lots and lots of people whose priority date is after April 2004 might have filed. This includes 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007.
So I think 3 years is intelligent guess. But who knows I am just trying to make myself happy and trying to stay positive.
:)
If the legislations dont change - my estimate would be even more than 7 years (come on they already have 500k pending app before this 300k July2nd boom). In USCIS term It doesn't matter where you stand in line out of that 800K folks. The NSC july 2nd filers are speculated to be transfered to TSC almost 2 months down the line and no one has guaranted that our Original Receipt date of July 2nd be kept intact - How do you logically map this ??
What Franklin said very logical - very realistic !
Thanks,
Diptam
I like your word: "guestimate" (Guess + Estimate) i.e. tukka (hindi word)
Well, I don't think I am at the end of line of 300,000 people. There must be lots and lots of people whose priority date is after April 2004 might have filed. This includes 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007.
So I think 3 years is intelligent guess. But who knows I am just trying to make myself happy and trying to stay positive.
:)
InTheMoment
08-15 04:23 PM
If you do not get an Infopass appt. walk in ...as it is an emergency (you amy loose your job) ! Take all docs that provide proof of that.
I had seen walkins accepted at my USCIS local office...
I'm went to the infopass website to make an appointment for interim EAD; I chose the "Washington Field Office" since I live in the DC Metro area. There are no appointments available in Aug and Sep!
This is unbelievable! What other options do I have?
Please advise. Thanks!
I had seen walkins accepted at my USCIS local office...
I'm went to the infopass website to make an appointment for interim EAD; I chose the "Washington Field Office" since I live in the DC Metro area. There are no appointments available in Aug and Sep!
This is unbelievable! What other options do I have?
Please advise. Thanks!
more...
amitjoey
07-10 12:32 PM
Mine is reached today morning.
great!.
great!.
2010 amores perros movie poster.
11785181
06-24 09:46 AM
I applied for EAD renewal sometime in the end of May and I received my EAD cards both for me and my wife yesterday valid for one year. OUrs were expiring in September 2008.
more...
belmontboy
05-01 07:23 PM
Folks...cannot wait...any options left....
Boring....india is better it looks....waiting for GC then Citizenship...is going to be a hell....inflation is high....
Anand
life could be with problems much worse than this, giving up soo easily?
:)
Senior's waiting for 7+ years should be an inspiration for you. Cheer up.
Boring....india is better it looks....waiting for GC then Citizenship...is going to be a hell....inflation is high....
Anand
life could be with problems much worse than this, giving up soo easily?
:)
Senior's waiting for 7+ years should be an inspiration for you. Cheer up.
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riva2005
04-12 12:40 PM
I think this has been discussed on some other thread.. would it be a good idea to make the contributions public.. may be, this encourages others to contribute, when they realize how much more is needed to reach the monetary goal.
In January, IV already said that they raised nearly 200K in 2006. Also, there are federal reports on www.opensecrets.org and senate's office of public records about how Immigration Voice spent money. They spent nearly 140,000 in 2006.
I think that is enough transparency. There will be more when they file tax returns.
Its not that people dont trust IV with money. I think people are just fine with waiting for 10 more years for Greencard. That's why, the core group should shut down this nonsense and do something better with their time.
In January, IV already said that they raised nearly 200K in 2006. Also, there are federal reports on www.opensecrets.org and senate's office of public records about how Immigration Voice spent money. They spent nearly 140,000 in 2006.
I think that is enough transparency. There will be more when they file tax returns.
Its not that people dont trust IV with money. I think people are just fine with waiting for 10 more years for Greencard. That's why, the core group should shut down this nonsense and do something better with their time.
more...
24fps
02-23 02:53 AM
I just dont get it. A.R Rehman has been doing amazing work for ages now and it needed a British movie to take him to the world stage. Really, his work in Dil Se...was way better than what he did in Slumdog.
Bollywood sucks and how!!! They need to figure out how they can take their cinema to the world audience. They've been failing miserably in promoting their movies in the west. Americans welcome change and encourage talent always and our bollywood producers/directors need to tap that.
films are made for markets, you and i might say that bollywood is shit but guess what 1.2 billion people dont think so and it works for them!
if bollywood would try competing with hollywood it would get eaten up purely on the kind of mega budgets etc that hollywood has, bollywood has its own charm and audience and should relish it.and not loose its identity
Bollywood sucks and how!!! They need to figure out how they can take their cinema to the world audience. They've been failing miserably in promoting their movies in the west. Americans welcome change and encourage talent always and our bollywood producers/directors need to tap that.
films are made for markets, you and i might say that bollywood is shit but guess what 1.2 billion people dont think so and it works for them!
if bollywood would try competing with hollywood it would get eaten up purely on the kind of mega budgets etc that hollywood has, bollywood has its own charm and audience and should relish it.and not loose its identity
hot amores perros movie poster.
gc_on_demand
05-29 12:29 PM
Absolutely true, It is torturing the kids for the aspirations of the parents to be seen in the national TV and for award.
It is not the poor kids are not getting the award, it is the parent, especially it is the trend with indians.
why ? ask your kids to do same and see what you feel on that night. can your kids do same ? forget about torturing or anything for a moment. Didn't you see Nupur Lala a past winner where she is now ? if she was torture for that competition she would n't be in MIT. its a competition of brain power to me.
It is not the poor kids are not getting the award, it is the parent, especially it is the trend with indians.
why ? ask your kids to do same and see what you feel on that night. can your kids do same ? forget about torturing or anything for a moment. Didn't you see Nupur Lala a past winner where she is now ? if she was torture for that competition she would n't be in MIT. its a competition of brain power to me.
more...
house 2011 Amores perros (2000)
485_se_dukhi
09-22 07:44 PM
In trying to play the "devil's advocate", you still did not answer my question. i.e. "Let me ask you a simple question. What CAN be the "perceived benefit" from a rally like this that would make you think that it would be worth attending? Is it something like a guarantee for a GC in 2 months or a bill that passes next month that does everything we legals want? What is it?"
i already have my GC but i share the pain and frustration of folks who do not..if a 7 month wait process for me was frustrating - i can understand what a 7 year process would be to others like me...
With all due respect, I do not think you have a clue as to what a 7 year wait can be like. Having received your GC in 7 months, now I understand where all this critiquing is coming from (without offering any solution of course).
People have been quoting Gandhi and his South Africa protests.........those were different times and different issues.........
I'm still trying to understand your point...you do not want us to quote Gandhi, MLK or any others that could inspire and motivate us. You do not think a big rally will help. You do not think meeting lawmakers will help. As Walking_dude remarked before, so WHAT do YOU suggest we do?
unless there are drastic and dramatic measures - concrete changes are not possible........small procedural victories - maybe........drastic change.....no way!
Can you give a few examples of these "drastic and dramatic measures" that will give us "concrete changes"? I'm sure we are all ears and will be willing to employ these.
You have such an active and analytical mind. Why not use it for something constructive like suggesting actual concrete steps that IV can take.
if the american govt is non-responsive to the demand from 60% of its own citizens to withdraw from Iraq - how can we realistically expect it to react with super haste to our requests..
Your point being....? That we should not request or discuss our issues with law makers? Or because of the Iraq war quagmire, Congress will not take any other decision or pass any other bill until that is resolved??
Lastly, you mentioned about your pet peeve
america's competitiveness and risk of reverse brain drain........personally - i think most people dont care two hoots about these issues - these messages and slogans are not out of a new found love for america but to create a nice "politically correct shield" for people's own private agendas (and the collective agenda of all of us) - to get a GC.
My first reaction. You're kidding, right! Ever worked in marketing/sales?? When you go to sell your product or service, you try to sell it from the point of view of the customer. In this case, what the benefit can be from the point of view of the US govt and US economy. Yes, our primary aim is to get our GC's in a reasonable time frame. The slogans and messages are in support of these ( By the way both happen to be true).
Incidentally, even the spark in Gandhi was ignited when he personally was insulted and thrown from a train. My point being that it is only when we personally are affected by an issue that we react to it. The reaction ofcourse differs based on our own individual character, personality and other traits.
appreciate your comments - but as i said in my post clearly that I accept the probability that my views are wrong.....
""on the other hand if one day it so transpires that this rally was the historic starting point of major immigration reforms triggered by a group of pioneering individuals - i would have no choice but to eat my words and hang my head in shame that i did not attend.............""
But look at it this way......i already have my GC but i share the pain and frustration of folks who do not..if a 7 month wait process for me was frustrating - i can understand what a 7 year process would be to others like me....if people who are waiting saw the utility of the rally....there would have been more than 2,000 in DC.........but clearly they did not.......i was willing to give it a shot - but unfortunately could not and did not want to specifically postpone something else to make it to DC.......
People have been quoting Gandhi and his South Africa protests.........those were different times and different issues.........colonialism, racial discrimination etc.......if the american govt is non-responsive to the demand from 60% of its own citizens to withdraw from Iraq - how can we realistically expect it to react with super haste to our requests....besides gandhi had the courage to stand up to police brutality, get arrested etc.....in today's days and age - as white collared professionals - do we have the guts and will to do that? For example - we cannot even strike (non cooperation/ civil disobedience movement)....because we get paid by our respective private sector employers.....and our grudge is against the Govt - who do we strike against......?? and if we do strike or court arrest or adopt other forms of civil protest and by chance run up a police record in the process.......who would employ us in the future...in Gandhi's days - they did not have electronic background checks......!!
Another take - if US can have an endless source of temporary workers coming in, paying into income tax and social security taxes and medicare taxes for a few years......and going back without claiming a single dime of social benefits......its the best possible situation for US....a forever young, qualified, minimum wages (i.e prevailing wages) earning tax paying transient population supporting/ subsidizing an archaic and otherwise struggling social security and healthcare system.
another point people have been harping on (apologies for bringing this up but this is my only pet peeve amongst all the other wise great things that happen on this forum).......america's competitiveness and risk of reverse brain drain........personally - i think most people dont care two hoots about these issues - these messages and slogans are not out of a new found love for america but to create a nice "politically correct shield" for people's own private agendas (and the collective agenda of all of us) - to get a GC. Are we here to improve america's competitiveness (if that was the primary purpose of our coming here - shame on us for not staying back and improving our respective motherlands' competitiveness) or our own future - if the latter - lets call a spade a spade.........
so - whats the "so what" from my post? is it to critique what IV is doing - no! The "so what" is - unless there are drastic and dramatic measures - concrete changes are not possible........small procedural victories - maybe........drastic change.....no way!
just to take the "popular" Gandhian analogy a step further......There was Home Rule League and Congress in existence in India for a long time.....their objective was to petition the British Govt for small changes........and their ultimate goal was to get dominion status for india......only when Gandhi came on board plus supporters of other proactive forms of protest.....like Subhash Bose.....Tilak etc and the armed freedom struggle started (Bhagat Singh, Azad et al)......did Congress wake up and ask for "purna swaraj" (complete independence).......so from 1885 (founding of congress) to 1930 (Lahore Session of Congress when purna swaraj declaration was made) - nothing happened......british empire went from strength to strength.......then in 17 years - India got independence.......
pl think about what i wrote objectively......and dont jump on me just because i am playing devil's advocate
i already have my GC but i share the pain and frustration of folks who do not..if a 7 month wait process for me was frustrating - i can understand what a 7 year process would be to others like me...
With all due respect, I do not think you have a clue as to what a 7 year wait can be like. Having received your GC in 7 months, now I understand where all this critiquing is coming from (without offering any solution of course).
People have been quoting Gandhi and his South Africa protests.........those were different times and different issues.........
I'm still trying to understand your point...you do not want us to quote Gandhi, MLK or any others that could inspire and motivate us. You do not think a big rally will help. You do not think meeting lawmakers will help. As Walking_dude remarked before, so WHAT do YOU suggest we do?
unless there are drastic and dramatic measures - concrete changes are not possible........small procedural victories - maybe........drastic change.....no way!
Can you give a few examples of these "drastic and dramatic measures" that will give us "concrete changes"? I'm sure we are all ears and will be willing to employ these.
You have such an active and analytical mind. Why not use it for something constructive like suggesting actual concrete steps that IV can take.
if the american govt is non-responsive to the demand from 60% of its own citizens to withdraw from Iraq - how can we realistically expect it to react with super haste to our requests..
Your point being....? That we should not request or discuss our issues with law makers? Or because of the Iraq war quagmire, Congress will not take any other decision or pass any other bill until that is resolved??
Lastly, you mentioned about your pet peeve
america's competitiveness and risk of reverse brain drain........personally - i think most people dont care two hoots about these issues - these messages and slogans are not out of a new found love for america but to create a nice "politically correct shield" for people's own private agendas (and the collective agenda of all of us) - to get a GC.
My first reaction. You're kidding, right! Ever worked in marketing/sales?? When you go to sell your product or service, you try to sell it from the point of view of the customer. In this case, what the benefit can be from the point of view of the US govt and US economy. Yes, our primary aim is to get our GC's in a reasonable time frame. The slogans and messages are in support of these ( By the way both happen to be true).
Incidentally, even the spark in Gandhi was ignited when he personally was insulted and thrown from a train. My point being that it is only when we personally are affected by an issue that we react to it. The reaction ofcourse differs based on our own individual character, personality and other traits.
appreciate your comments - but as i said in my post clearly that I accept the probability that my views are wrong.....
""on the other hand if one day it so transpires that this rally was the historic starting point of major immigration reforms triggered by a group of pioneering individuals - i would have no choice but to eat my words and hang my head in shame that i did not attend.............""
But look at it this way......i already have my GC but i share the pain and frustration of folks who do not..if a 7 month wait process for me was frustrating - i can understand what a 7 year process would be to others like me....if people who are waiting saw the utility of the rally....there would have been more than 2,000 in DC.........but clearly they did not.......i was willing to give it a shot - but unfortunately could not and did not want to specifically postpone something else to make it to DC.......
People have been quoting Gandhi and his South Africa protests.........those were different times and different issues.........colonialism, racial discrimination etc.......if the american govt is non-responsive to the demand from 60% of its own citizens to withdraw from Iraq - how can we realistically expect it to react with super haste to our requests....besides gandhi had the courage to stand up to police brutality, get arrested etc.....in today's days and age - as white collared professionals - do we have the guts and will to do that? For example - we cannot even strike (non cooperation/ civil disobedience movement)....because we get paid by our respective private sector employers.....and our grudge is against the Govt - who do we strike against......?? and if we do strike or court arrest or adopt other forms of civil protest and by chance run up a police record in the process.......who would employ us in the future...in Gandhi's days - they did not have electronic background checks......!!
Another take - if US can have an endless source of temporary workers coming in, paying into income tax and social security taxes and medicare taxes for a few years......and going back without claiming a single dime of social benefits......its the best possible situation for US....a forever young, qualified, minimum wages (i.e prevailing wages) earning tax paying transient population supporting/ subsidizing an archaic and otherwise struggling social security and healthcare system.
another point people have been harping on (apologies for bringing this up but this is my only pet peeve amongst all the other wise great things that happen on this forum).......america's competitiveness and risk of reverse brain drain........personally - i think most people dont care two hoots about these issues - these messages and slogans are not out of a new found love for america but to create a nice "politically correct shield" for people's own private agendas (and the collective agenda of all of us) - to get a GC. Are we here to improve america's competitiveness (if that was the primary purpose of our coming here - shame on us for not staying back and improving our respective motherlands' competitiveness) or our own future - if the latter - lets call a spade a spade.........
so - whats the "so what" from my post? is it to critique what IV is doing - no! The "so what" is - unless there are drastic and dramatic measures - concrete changes are not possible........small procedural victories - maybe........drastic change.....no way!
just to take the "popular" Gandhian analogy a step further......There was Home Rule League and Congress in existence in India for a long time.....their objective was to petition the British Govt for small changes........and their ultimate goal was to get dominion status for india......only when Gandhi came on board plus supporters of other proactive forms of protest.....like Subhash Bose.....Tilak etc and the armed freedom struggle started (Bhagat Singh, Azad et al)......did Congress wake up and ask for "purna swaraj" (complete independence).......so from 1885 (founding of congress) to 1930 (Lahore Session of Congress when purna swaraj declaration was made) - nothing happened......british empire went from strength to strength.......then in 17 years - India got independence.......
pl think about what i wrote objectively......and dont jump on me just because i am playing devil's advocate
tattoo Amores Perros
crystal
02-23 02:09 PM
I know a term called "spitting the venom". It is on full display in your post.
my dear.. pretentious pseudo middle class desi...
i know ppl like you...
you wear an armani to office but still carrying curd rice and pickel for lunch...
you rejoice the success of slumDOG..with your liberal friends...with a martini glass filled with water..in hand..because ur amma told u not to drink alcohaal..;)
according to u ...we are losers because we dont like being called a DOG in 21st century...
if you want to wag ur skinny brown ass ..eveytime SlumDOG is uttered..thats ur problem..
my dear.. pretentious pseudo middle class desi...
i know ppl like you...
you wear an armani to office but still carrying curd rice and pickel for lunch...
you rejoice the success of slumDOG..with your liberal friends...with a martini glass filled with water..in hand..because ur amma told u not to drink alcohaal..;)
according to u ...we are losers because we dont like being called a DOG in 21st century...
if you want to wag ur skinny brown ass ..eveytime SlumDOG is uttered..thats ur problem..
more...
pictures after Amores Perros,
mpadapa
10-08 09:18 PM
time for a bump
dresses Amores Perros Scene Pictures amp;
hunkuncontrolled
04-02 02:05 PM
You are an anti-immigrant troll. Good we caught you.
I know your kind
Now you will go to your site and announce how bravely you fought with H1Bs
Oh really . My bad ...lol:D
I know your kind
Now you will go to your site and announce how bravely you fought with H1Bs
Oh really . My bad ...lol:D
more...
makeup AMORES PERROS – MEXICO 2000
zeal2005
04-20 11:28 AM
The fact is Obama has not done anything he promised about immigration. He just speaks a lot and acts very little unfortunately...
girlfriend or go back to Amores perros
vparam
09-20 06:11 PM
Not able to find how to start a new thread... so I start my prediction here :-)
Category ROW China India Mexico Philipines
EB2 C 01MAR06 01June04 C C
3rd 01AUG03 01SEP01 22APR02 22APR02 01AUG03
Category ROW China India Mexico Philipines
EB2 C 01MAR06 01June04 C C
3rd 01AUG03 01SEP01 22APR02 22APR02 01AUG03
hairstyles Amores Perros
logiclife
01-15 05:21 PM
Dont go for gun even after you get green card. You can think about it after your citizenship. Green is just another type of visa which can be taken away. You right are fully protected only after you become a citizen. Even there also there is a catch in case of Naturalised of teh govt wants to go after you you cant dig you history and find a violation and base don that void te GC you got and teh citizenship.
Read this article : http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1075219844830
This is story of a 84 year old Nazi from world war II whose citizenship was revoked. So even citizenship can be revoked.
If you want to own a gun, own a gun and follow proper procedures and laws related to gun ownership. You can be afraid of every little thing before you get your green card.
If you are going to immigrate, then immigrate and assimilate with pride and dignity and stop being afraid of every little thing that might eventually lead of revocation of any of your immigration statuses.
Read this article : http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1075219844830
This is story of a 84 year old Nazi from world war II whose citizenship was revoked. So even citizenship can be revoked.
If you want to own a gun, own a gun and follow proper procedures and laws related to gun ownership. You can be afraid of every little thing before you get your green card.
If you are going to immigrate, then immigrate and assimilate with pride and dignity and stop being afraid of every little thing that might eventually lead of revocation of any of your immigration statuses.
bkam
05-11 12:09 PM
...So everythings gonna be OK. Lets go party. Just leave money for the plane tickets.
Guys, why don't we open a page "Bets" ? There we can place bets if a bill will pass, if our ammendments will be included, if something at all will happen... This will make our life more interesting and we will be in a better mood. To wait for another 5-6 years for the GC :-)
Long Live USCIS "Las Vegas" establishment :-)
Guys, why don't we open a page "Bets" ? There we can place bets if a bill will pass, if our ammendments will be included, if something at all will happen... This will make our life more interesting and we will be in a better mood. To wait for another 5-6 years for the GC :-)
Long Live USCIS "Las Vegas" establishment :-)
paskal
12-17 02:48 PM
With all due respect, the probelem I have with volunteers is that I don't think amtures can pull a job this big, you've got to have profesionals, somethng like a compain maneger.
I admire the courage of your guys, and think the goal is fantastic. But the way it goes, I don't see how it can be achieved.
I've learned a great deal about immigration from the forum here. I very much appreciate it. I try to give back by answering questions others may have. I think IV has been doing a great job serving as that capacity.
But you guys want do something bigger. Well, you have faith in it, I don't, at least not now, neither many others. Maybe that is why you are still asking for money and volunteers.
we have professional lobbyists. and they cost the erath.
and that is why we need contributions. as long people "don't believe" we don't succeed. it's up to you, it's your issue as much as mine. professionals cost a lot of money, and this thread is quibbling over 20 and 50 bucks. anyway who is the knight on the white horse coming to rescue us? it's just us buddy, and we have to do our best. i like your analytical thinking. we need you to join in and help. any number of volunteers is less imho...
I admire the courage of your guys, and think the goal is fantastic. But the way it goes, I don't see how it can be achieved.
I've learned a great deal about immigration from the forum here. I very much appreciate it. I try to give back by answering questions others may have. I think IV has been doing a great job serving as that capacity.
But you guys want do something bigger. Well, you have faith in it, I don't, at least not now, neither many others. Maybe that is why you are still asking for money and volunteers.
we have professional lobbyists. and they cost the erath.
and that is why we need contributions. as long people "don't believe" we don't succeed. it's up to you, it's your issue as much as mine. professionals cost a lot of money, and this thread is quibbling over 20 and 50 bucks. anyway who is the knight on the white horse coming to rescue us? it's just us buddy, and we have to do our best. i like your analytical thinking. we need you to join in and help. any number of volunteers is less imho...
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